Tony: This week on The Client Whisperer™ Show, we have an interview with someone who has some resources that will help what is on everyone’s mind, which is, how are you handling the fallout from the coronavirus epidemic that’s plaguing the world? Stay tuned.
Welcome to The Client Whisperer™ Show. I’m your host, Tony Banta and I am the Client Whisperer. I’ve spent over a decade running multiple six- and seven-figure client businesses, and I’ve learned that the secret to success and a client business comes down to one thing: leadership. Bad client behavior is the enemy and with the right curriculum, infrastructure, and mindset, you can lead your clients to great success and scale your business the easy way.
Today’s guest is a friend of mine. He is also the CEO of Nth Degree Accounting Firm. They’re based in Seattle. Dan was always that cliche kid growing up scheming on business ideas. And then he went in the exact opposite of that direction. He did a fellowship at the board that writes all the accounting standards in the US, literally wrote the book that your CPA probably uses. He worked in corporate, worked for a Warren Buffett-backed company getting ready to go public, and then he worked for the current CFO of Roku.
Finally, he found his way back to entrepreneurship. And today he helps business owners achieve financial certainty, what he calls “rigging the game.” I love this interview, because we spent a little bit of time talking about Dan’s experience and his opinions on things and his background. We spent a lot of time digging into both the very practical, very urgent topics of what do you do with your business? Dan has some phenomenal resources, and we’re going to share those at the end. But of course, they’re in the show notes that you can get to by going to clientwhisperer.show/31.
He has a free video series on how you can get some of the funding from the US government’s relief bills that have just been passed, a monumental $6 trillion worth of relief, and your business applies for some of it, in some ways, for sure. And Dan will explain exactly how in that course. So you’re not gonna want to miss that. But besides that, we also talk about just how to manage risk in your business because, for a lot of businesses, this economic downturn is, of course, something that requires immediate attention. But it’s not something that threatens their business. It’s not something that threatens their sanity. And that’s where we all want to be. So pay close attention to some of the things that Dan shares. I know this will not be an episode that you will regret listening to all the way to the end.
And with that, I’d like to welcome Dan Nicholson. Hey, Dan, how’s it going, man?
Dan: It’s going pretty well. Yeah. Thanks for having me on. Excited to chat.
Tony: Absolutely. Thanks for making some time. I know you are busy doing a bunch of – how are you guys holding out?
Dan: It’s been an interesting, interesting period of time for sure. With just all of the Coronavirus stuff and all the questions that, understandably, people have. But these are also kind of the moments that I take pride in being available to clients. Frankly, if if you don’t find a level of enjoyment running a CPA firm helping your clients through this type of situation – not to say I enjoy the fact that this is happening, I certainly don’t, of course – have the enjoyment in being able to truly help people, then you’re probably in the wrong business because this profession is about being the trusted resource for folks as it comes to their money.
Tony: And of course, money is a hot topic right now, in that there have just been an unprecedented series of governments – I don’t know if they’re calling it the stimulus or just kind of keeping the economy going while so many brick and mortar businesses are effectively shut down. Have you – what are some of your thoughts on what the government’s doing, from a monetary standpoint, what has been the reception that you’ve seen from your clients? And you know, what are some of your personal opinions?
Dan: Yeah, from a client’s perspective, it almost kind of mirrors the way that we view things in general. There’s a, say, 30%, who absolutely hate it, 30 to 40%. There’s 30 to 40% who think it’s great, and then there’s the remainder that’s kind of in the middle – meh – about it one way one way or another. And that just seems to be the general trends as well on anything that is new legislation. So I’ve seen that trend kind of play out as it relates to the three acts that we’ve had out thus far related to the Coronavirus.
You know, when I think about these types of situations though, when trying to assess the overall state of the economy, there’s a few different buckets that you have to view this through: there is what is the overall solvency in the market and the overall liquidity, and and then do we have the right kind of stimulus bills in place, and then finally, public health. And so for all the folks that I’ve talked to, and we’re partners with some of the biggest players out there, like BNY, Bank of New York, who manages somewhere around 37 trillion, so we’ve been fortunate to have some calls with them and Bernstein, who’s arguably the preeminent research institution as it relates to financial markets.
And from our conversation from two to three weeks ago to our conversation in the last couple of days, not a lot has changed in terms of their viewpoint on things. I mean, the reality is, is that we’re in a recession. And we can say that pretty matter-of-fact. You know, typically, you say you’re in a recession after you have two consecutive quarters of negative GDP growth. But it’s one of those extreme situations where I think we can just say rather matter-of-factly, we’re in a recession. And that the consensus seems to be that GDP for the second quarter is going to drop about 20%, which is significant.
Tony: To say it lightly, yeah.
Dan: Which, 20% drop in GDP is somewhere around $3-4 trillion US GDP. So that’s significant. But looking out over the course of the year, the sentiments are that we’re going to have a recovery in Q3, Q4, and that the overall contraction will be somewhere around 2-4% for the year. So, hopefully that’s the case that we have what they call a V-shaped recovery. So we’ve got a dip – a strong dip and then a strong rebound outlook for next year, somewhere around a 2-3% increase in GDP.
But that’s a relative perspective, because that’s factoring in the fact that we had a decline in 2020. And so while we’re going to most likely grow next year, we’re growing off a lower number. So relative to 2019, we’re still going to be down and we’ve been used to this 10-year kind of bull market. So we’re in kind of a new reality, but from a liquidity, solvency perspective, the Fed is effectively doing everything they can, from a monetary policy perspective. Three stimulus bills and a fourth is in the works. I don’t know how it’ll ultimately materialize. But I think there’ll be a fourth stimulus bill at some point.
Tony: Yep. It seems like they’re getting increasingly political with the third. And then with some of the reports that I’ve seen, the people are starting to sort of retreat back to their usual political corners, it seems.
Dan: Yeah. You know, my perspective on that is that lions do lion things, sheep do sheep things and politicians do political things. So I kind of come and go into every political discussion or evaluation of any bill through the lens of, there’s going to be some politics involved on both sides. That’s almost by definition – they are politicians, and they represent their basis. And so they, to a degree, have an obligation to argue and debate on behalf of who they represent. And so there’s going to be political elements to every bill, because of the nature of the beast to some extent.
So I mostly try to just ignore that. Because it only serves to frustrate, oftentimes, and try to focus on what are the facts of the bill as we know them today? And, frankly, we know a lot and also we know very little about how a lot of these acts will ultimately be implemented. The biggest element of the bill, at least for small businesses, is something called the paycheck protection program. And we’re recording this on April 3, where the application window is supposed to be opening today. And there’s still several open questions about how the calculations will ultimately be processed.
And that’s just the nature of it, as well, is we’ve got $350 billion earmarked for a program that was birthed seven days ago. So things are moving quickly and changing every day. And we just kind of have to be flexible to that and know that new information is going to come out, and absolutely triage as we go.
Tony: Yeah. And you know, that was one of the reasons that I was so excited that we were able to do this, and we’ll be turning this around pretty quickly for our listeners. You know, we’ll have links in the show notes for everybody so that you can follow Dan, which I would definitely recommend doing because there is so much that we just don’t know about the bills, but also just the current state of what is going to happen. And so we wanted to make sure to get some of these resources in all of our listeners’ hands quickly. And for some of the people listening who might not have a financial background, what does liquidity and solvency mean?
Dan: Yeah, good question. So, when we think about liquidity, you may have a bunch of assets, but they could be tied up in things like buildings, or other long-term, what I call alternative investments. So you’ve invested in, say, some other business or startup. And so those aren’t particularly liquid in the sense that they can’t be easily converted to cash. Whereas money in your bank account, that’s the most liquid asset you have, it’s already in cash. And stocks and bonds are fairly liquid in that you can sell them and access the cash in a few days. So that’s really what liquidity represents.
And then solvency is basically looking at your assets relative to your liabilities. So you may have a lot of liquid assets, but relative to your – meaning they’re in cash or could be quickly converted to cash. But you’re insolvent because your assets are less than your liabilities. And so your ability to actually pay those debts are constrained. And so when we’re looking at individual businesses and the overall – and we’re also looking at banks as well. You know, when we look back at 2018 – or 2008, the crash was really related to the financial markets melting down, right, and so they had liquidity and solvency issues.
Then we’re in a totally different scenario right now in the sense that the banks are relatively solvent and liquid at this point, and like I said earlier, the Fed has been pretty aggressive in terms of their monetary policies and helping ensure that that banks can get access to capital to make it available to their constituents.
And so when you look at say, for example, if you’re looking at a – I guess I’ll add one more thing, if you’re looking at potential investments, you’ll hear this term thrown out about how we really want to invest in companies that have a strong balance sheet. And if you’ve heard that term before when investing comes in, a strong balance sheet, well, a balance sheet is where you see the assets and liabilities of the business. And so what they’re saying is, to a degree, when you hear someone make the statement about a good balance sheet is, to a large degree right now, how solvent are they? How do their assets look relative to their liabilities?
I love the way you put that. Because you talk about it in a very clinical way, which is great to think about. But what you mean is if someone’s not insolvent, they’re broke, right? They might have cash flow, but their bills are greater than the money they have coming in. Right.
And that’s the dirty little secret about most of what you see on social media and a lot of the various news articles is that folks will share their Stripe accounts, which may be an indication that they’re liquid, but they might be completely insolvent, meaning they’re completely broke. It’s like, yeah, you’re depositing a bunch of money into your account, which is awesome. But you might also be stacking up so much debt that the amount in your Stripe account isn’t anywhere close for you to actually pay your bills.
Tony: Yeah, there’s a fairly large, in the online marketing space, there’s a fairly large company that for a while I followed, and if you remembered some of the things that they would say – I started jotting down some of the numbers that they would talk about in a podcast and things like that. And then one day I was scratching my head and saying, “There’s no way that they’re actually making money. They’re spending a million dollars a year in, you know, Facebook ads, and then they’re talking about, they’re paying their team.” And, you know, it’s just very easy to do that.
But of course, that’s a big part of what you talk about, in the times where we’re not all COVID-19 obsessed. You talk about how to re-engineer your cash flows, keeping everything in a spot where you know what’s coming in and you can predict that you know where the business is going. You call that rigging the game. Do you want to share a little bit more about that?
Dan: Yeah. And that’s what I’m really passionate about. Frankly, I didn’t go into college thinking I wanted to be an accountant. I’ve always been the kid growing up scheming on business ideas. And I actually went into college as a marketing major and then thought accounting was going to be the kind of the broader skill set to start a business and there’s a bunch of CEO’s and entrepreneurs who have these accounting degrees, and so I never imagined I would run a CPA firm.
And the facts and circumstances led me here to kind of apply some technical skills and scratch my own itch of being an entrepreneur. But really what I’m most interested in is this idea of, how do we set ourselves up so that we always get the outcomes that we want? And part of the outcome that we want is, there’s the best case scenario. But then there’s also the worst case scenario that I’m still okay with. And so – but oftentimes we think about things and it’s like all or nothing, either we win or we lose.
But actually, there’s kind of a continuum in my estimation. And so I’m really interested in helping clients kind of map out what winning actually looks like to them. Because once we know that, then we can write the rules to make that happen. But what – I think about business as kind of a game, a sport. And if you get to write the rules, then why wouldn’t you win the game, usually.
And so the problem is, people don’t really write the rules, or define what winning truly looks like to them. And so that’s really the current state. And for me winning is – and when I think about wealth, too, it’s things like, I want to have 10 hours of more free time per week, or whitespace to be able to explore ideas, or I want to have a certain amount of time with my kids. So there’s some intangible things that we might want that are part of winning. And there might also be some more tangible things like houses, cars, etc.
I don’t really care what somebody wants, that’s not really my place to say, one way or another, because these are all preferences. But we need to get clear on that because there’s a cost to it. Having 10 more hours a week costs something. So getting clear on what those things are, that’s kind of the first step in rigging the game to win.
And then from there, once we know what the outcomes are, how do we get the right systems and processes in place to ensure that that happens? And so what I do, kind of long story long is, because I’m a nerd, I have an equation. And the equation is financial anxiety equals financial uncertainty times financial powerlessness. And so what I want to do is get rid of the financial anxiety. That means I’m kind of winning. I define what it would mean.
And so in order to do that, I’ve got to drive down uncertainty and increase the power that I have over my money. And so, right now, we’re in this unprecedented time of uncertainty, but there’s still ways in which we can drive that certainty up. And the way that we drive our power up is by a number of things, but, one, using principles for decision making, so that we’re making the same decisions consistently in the same fashion. Then we’re using bank accounts, setting up bank accounts to help us make decisions, and then we actually understand kind of the rhythm of our business. So really getting clear on those things gives us more power. And in combination, that’s what helps us break the game, if that makes sense.
Tony: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it is, that any longtime listener of the show will know, we talk a lot about systems engineering and we talk about the same thing. You can engineer any kind of outcome that you want when it comes to the work, to how much time you have to spend in the work, to the kind of client results that you want or retention. So I love that you take that same approach to actually engineering the outcomes that you want from your finances, from the financial side of your business. And of course, it intersects quite a bit with the business operations. What do you see as one of the most common business mistakes that people make? When you’re working with them, you need to engineer their cash flows to optimize for what they want. What do you think is the biggest blind spot or mistake that people consistently make?
Dan: The first one would be not being explicitly clear on what they’re optimizing for. So that would be number one, I guess number 1a. B would be that as they’re growing their cash flow, they are taking on the same amount of risk or more risk relative to the amount of cash flow they’re generating. So if you think about, like a timeline, you’ve got cash flow on one axis and time on the other. Ideally, cash is trending up over time, right? But also, ideally, the amount of risk that we have is trending down. Does that make sense?
Dan: And you could define risk as – there’s a bunch of different things that could go into to risk. It could be you continually are increasing your fixed costs but you’re not growing your recurring revenue, so every month it’s actually harder for you to cover your existing costs so you have more room to run your business. And so the way that shows up is you’re always stressed, like you just don’t have – you can’t take any days off. Intuitively know, I’ve got to bring in more money to pay just these existing costs.
And so now you have a – you go from six-figure business to seven figures to eight figures, so on and so forth. But it’s getting harder at each level, because you have to just bring in more to be in the same spot that you were before. So then, 1b is not reducing risk while increasing cash flow. And that goes back to these principles.
So I have two principles that I use the most often. The first is, “First, we optimize, then we maximize.” And the second is, “We always hedge against the downside.” And so this whole idea of optimize versus maximize, this took me years to figure out. And I’m embarrassed to say that, but I was classically trained in finance, going to business school, and I worked in all these different places along the way that look really cool on a resumé.
But what I was learning was about how to do what I call ‘Fortune 500 Finance’. The reality is, almost all of those tools don’t actually work for a small business. And it just took me years to figure out why that was the case. And what I realized was – when it finally hit me in the face, it’s like, how did this take me so long to realize this, but a publicly-traded company or a company that’s aspiring to be publicly traded, they have to maximize shareholder value, that is their share responsibility, that’s everywhere in business literature, is maximizing shareholder value.
And “maximize” is about having the most today, the most amount of money, the most amount of time, the most amount of everything. And you can do that when you’re a big company because you actually have the team to do that. And you have – every line of business has a president and marketing team and so on and so forth, IT support for their line of business softwares, and on and on and on.
As small business owners or even individuals who are trying to run their personal finances, we’re a team of one or a team of a couple, and we can’t possibly maximize. It’s just, we don’t have the resources, money or time to do it. And so that means that we have to optimize what is the most efficient path, given our objectives, does that make sense? When we’re maximizing, the way that shows up is, we’re trying to achieve five goals at once. We’re trying to make more money and work less and hire more staff and launch a new product and on and on and on. And that’s maximizing.
We’re trying to have the most today, when really we need to optimize. What is the number one priority, let’s get that done. And then let’s move on to the second one, and then move on to the third one. And so it’s about finding the most efficient path forward. And so we add in all these risks to our business, because we’re constantly trying to maximize, but when we flip to optimizing, and we’re just trying to solve the next problem, suddenly we can identify those risks, which is the next thing: we always hedge against the downside.
Last thing I’ll say on this front, because I know I’m probably being pretty long-winded is, if you study the really great entrepreneurs, the thing that they do is they create asymmetric risk, the upside is disproportionate to the downside. I mean, look at all the things that Elon Musk is doing. There’s downside, but the upside is exponentially greater than the downside risk, right? And so, people view these great entrepreneurs as these massive risk takers, but actually, they’re not, relative to the potential return. But most of us small business owners, the risk that we’re taking relative to the return is just not there. We need to eliminate those downside risks. And that’s really what I talk to people about recession-proofing stuff, it’s about systematically identifying these downside risks, which – oh, by the way, the downside risks are worst-case scenarios. But also there’s downside risks in best-case scenarios.
Like right now, you lay off all your staff and you hedge the downside risk of – the worst-case scenario downside risk, but then all of a sudden you have all these clients come back, how do you hedge the risk that you can actually fulfill that revenue uptake if we actually have a V-shaped recovery here?
Tony: 100%. And that can be far worse. Then you have reputation damaged on top of the financial that could take years to repair for some firms.
Dan: Exactly. Yep, 100%. So, systematically being able to identify the worst-case and best-case scenarios, what are those risks that exist within both of those, so that we can eliminate them? And if we can’t eliminate them, and the risk is greater than the reward, then we don’t do it.
You think back to being a kid. If kids are really good at this whole risk-reward trade-off, they’re excellent at it. Like, “Oh, I have to clean my room to watch TV. Okay, that trade-off seems fair.” But if you’re like, “I get to watch TV for 30 minutes, but I have to mow the lawn and do these 10 other things,” then they’re like, “That’s not really, the risk-reward is not really there.” Kids are really good at it. And then as adults, as entrepreneurs, for some reason we lose sight of that, and we just focus on the reward, we lose complete track of the risk.
Tony: Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. I think there’s a deeper truth that you’re you’re speaking to there as well in that, that we see the same thing all the time with business operations, that the same pattern that you talked about around trying to maximize before you’ve optimized, we see that in the context of, someone’s not really good at something yet, but they’re incredibly efficient.
So they have all of these automations set up for the – you know, they have these zaps, they have all these things in place, but they’re not actually getting the results for their client. You know, if they put one client through the process, it wouldn’t – the chance that it would be a successful outcome is still under 50%. And if you’re in that mode, it doesn’t matter how efficient you are, you’re going to be spinning your wheels, you’re going to be wasting a lot, because you’re not actually creating value. So I think that it speaks to a bigger – you know, maybe it’s because everybody is comparing themselves to those Fortune 500 sorts of – the story that they read about in a book rather than getting to the ground level of their business.
Dan: Yeah, well, I have several thoughts that come to mind hearing you state that, and I appreciate you drawing the parallel to operations. First off, I think where folks really fall down is they start to think that operations and finance and marketing are somehow totally different things that can be examined in some sort of silo. Reality is that it’s all business strategy. Finance and accounting needs to be directly connected back to your business strategy, just like your marketing and operations.
Accounting is just the output of whatever decisions that you made. Finance is about managing your money, which is the output of whatever decisions you make. If you made bad decisions, there’s no money to manage. You make great decisions, there’s more money to manage. So it’s all strategy. And this is where I think folks, again, introduce more risk into their business because they’re using different contextual frameworks to solve marketing problems than they’re using to solve operational problems and they’re using to solve money problems.
And every time you use a different methodology, guess what? You create more risk, and if we’re trying to reduce risk and increase cash flow, we’re not solving the problem, right? So that’s the first thing that comes to mind, is just disconnecting these elements of your business that really cannot be disconnected. A CEO is supposed to be overseeing everything, and there’s a reason for that, because there needs to be a comprehensive strategy for the business.
The other thing that comes to mind is what I call the marketer frame versus the professional skeptic frame. So the marketer frame is where you look at your business and you go, I need more sales, I don’t have enough leads, or the copy isn’t good enough, so on and so forth. And then that’s going to solve our income problem.
And to a degree, all of those things may be true. But we also have to marry that with the professional skeptic, which is sort of almost like The Socratic method of going, “Well, why do we not have more leads? What is the real reason? Why? What?” Asking these really hard-hitting questions that dig pretty deep, because what I see often is that the months where the folks incurred the most amount of expenses, where they had the most amount of salaries, the most amount of new things, new softwares, automations, etc., are in the two to three months after their biggest sales month, because they applied the marketer frame in the two to three months after, which is okay, we’re going to get more and more leads. They’ve extrapolated out that our best month means this is the new trend.
But the professional skeptic is going, “Is this really a new trend, a new trend line? Or did we get lucky? Were we on a podcast with Tony Banta and now we have a huge spike because it’s a top 100 podcast? Now April’s our best month ever. But guess what, Tony’s not going to have me on every week, or people are going to tune out. So maybe the bump that I had was not because we’re doing something awesome as a business but because of something specific that happened in April.”
And so the professional skeptic is asking those self-reflective questions and really being somewhat of a contrarian about the outcomes of the business to go, “Is this something I’m doing or is it a one-off thing? Is this a new trend? What does the data really tell us?”
Tony: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. And to Dan, you know, I’d be more than happy to have you on every week if you keep dropping so much wisdom like you have today. I really appreciate everything that you are saying, sharing, and there’s certainly a bunch more that we can, you know, that we can go into, but we’ll have to save that for next time. I know that we both have a lot of commitments going on right now. But I have a quick question for you to end us with. But before we do, where is the best place for people to find you? I know that you also have some free resources for everybody.
Dan: Yeah, so right now the best place to find me would be cfeclass.com which is cash flow engineering class.com, is what the CFE stands for. Basically, CFE class is where I took all of this methodology that I created around kind of re-engineering cash flow and I turned it into kind of a six-week program. So that website is where I’m putting all of our COVID-related resources, which we’re giving away completely for free. So cfeclass.com/helpful is where you can see all of our updated resources and cfeclass.com/oasis is where you can sign up to get updates, all of our free updates on COVID stuff. So right now that’s kind of the main spot for our resources.
Tony: That’s absolutely fantastic and in fact that is – you are practicing what you preach there in terms of playing the long game by sharing so many of those resources for free that you’ve had very little risk to be able to do that, but there is a significant long-term upside there. So I love the, I love the helpfulness that you’re being but also the real time application of exactly what you’re talking about.
Dan: Yeah, so I’ve been throwing a lot of stones at other accounting firms who are creating COVID-related products and trying to sell assistance with a loan application, all that. I’ve got some of my own kind of moral and ethical obligations to it, personally. But also, I just think it’s bad business. I started my business, my main business, Nth Degree CPAs, during the last recession, and I had a huge competitive advantage by trying to be famously helpful with no expectation. My dad always taught me, “Don’t do something if you expect something in return.”
And so don’t be helpful if you’re expecting to get clients, because then you’re not really being helpful. And so, backing away, tried to be famously helpful, just be the go-to resource, don’t expect anything in return. And honestly, people helping people, genuinely being helpful, I think that’s the best evergreen strategy that you can do without a doubt, but you have to be someone who’s willing to think about the long game, because it’s not going to get you cash in the door right now.
That said, we’ve had like a 3,000% increase in traffic to our website, so to all the people who are throwing all these stones back at me about how I’m going to go bankrupt by giving all this information away, maybe I will, although I hedged all my downside risks, so I think I’m okay there, but I’d rather play the long game and be in alignment with morals than try to exploit folks for a couple thousand dollars now who aren’t gonna hire me later because they didn’t really get the value that they needed in that moment.
Tony: Totally. And we’ve seen, we’ve been privileged enough to see a bunch of the resources that you’ve shared. I know they’ve helped us, they’ve helped some of our clients that we’ve shared it with, so I can’t thank you enough for that. Dan, one quick question in closing: what does client success mean to you?
Dan: Yeah, client success to me is seeing someone play their own game, whatever that may be, and optimizing towards their priorities. So playing their own game is not trying to be somebody else. And I’ve got this whole methodology and how you kind of figure out what your game is. And, just briefly, it kind of goes back to thinking about your chosen sport growing up and how you wanted to show up and play in that chosen sport. Chances are, that’s a pretty good proxy for the way that you want and should be in business, but we start trying to adapt to what everyone else told us we should be doing.
So really seeing people play their own game, not trying to conform to somebody else. I’m not a huge believer in trying to address all of your weaknesses. Play to your strengths and then eliminate – if you have weaknesses that are toxic, then you should address those, be a good human being. But really play to your strengths. And then focus on what’s actually important. Whatever those priorities are, whether that’s 10 more hours a week, whether that’s buying some horses, a second home, whatever that is, let’s have the business fund that rather than constantly chasing some vanity metrics that don’t get you any closer to to the reason why you start your business to begin with.
Tony:I love it. Thank you so much, Dan. We really appreciate the time, and check out the show notes. I cannot, I cannot emphasize that enough in these times. You need to be able to, you know, have access to some people who are making sense. And Dan certainly is one of those people on my list. So thanks so much and we’ll see you around.
Dan: Thank you.